Rough Play

[Kisaq]

Aww crap well I've been chastised for being too hard on new members..so this time I'll ask questions first.

I'm assuming that the usual dog to dog intro was done, neutral ground dogs meet and all goes well? The new dog comes into the home and is "given" almost immediately free access to all the resources, free roaming of the house, food, water the yard ,toys etc?

You may or may not have noticed or paid attention to who goes out the door first, gets petted first and who's allowed on the furniture (if that's the rule of the house).

And dominance doesn't "really" rear it',s head till the dog reaches maturity somewhere in the 18 to 30 month range. And dog ages from rescues are educated guesses at best.

Guess that's enough..so how did I do?

LOL.
You brought up some good points. Especially, who she allows to go first out the door, or on the couch, etc. And the maturity age. Many dog's personalities/temperaments completely change when they reach 2years old... and not always in a good way!

But I still think Carabby needs the advice of a good trainer who can evaluate the two dogs together - put them all on the right path to becoming a happy household. A good trainer will mention those things too... and other things. It's basically the essence of NILIF training technique (Nothing in Life is Free). When behavior is good, they have access to resources. When behavior is not appreciated, the resources are removed (ie: access to the couch).

It doesn't look like "going it alone" is working for them. I'd hate to see this escalate into a bloodly mess. It's always so much harder to fix if you leave it for too long hoping it will work itself out on it's own.

 

[Carabby]

I Agree

Hi There,
I have consulted a trainer, and he has mentioned everything in the above two messages - along with other stuff.
Your assumption was pretty much dead on: the two dogs were introduced to one another on neutral territory, taken for a long walk before coming into my house, but quite honestly, I did not even think about the "who goes first" through doors, and such. My experience with dogs has always been with mellow/laid back dogs .... Labrador retrievers. I am discovering Boxers are a whole other side of dog world. LOL I am learning every day, right along with Abby.
I love Abby, and with the help of the trainer, she is coming along quite well. I was just frustrated when I ranted on this forum last night. Today, she's been good as gold. She is a fast learner, loves our training sessions, and basically is a good girl.
When I watch her around Russell, and after reading some of the other forums, I do think she is trying to come on to him to play, but my older Lab does not see her snaps/growls/leaps as "fun stuff". He is getting very adept at side stepping her, and I've noticed that she doesn't try to run after him and attack, which again, is leading me to believe she's more in it for fun than being nasty. However, I respect the fact that if Russell were to retaliate, we could have a serious problem.
I adopted Abby from a local animal shelter, and her previous family had used the same trainer as I am. (It turns out Abby lived about 10 km away from me.) He has known the family - and Abby - for a while now and was able to give me Abby's date of birth (March 10, 2012). Abby has boarded at his place numerous times in the past, I was told.
So in reality, the trainer is not only helping with training Abby, but he is training/educating me on handling a Boxer. Later this month, Abby and I will be commencing group lessons. She has basic obedience, and will sit/stay/down/stay/walk on loose leash, come when called very consistently. We now are working on performing those commands with distractions. (My daughter's cat really helps with that!)
Abby needs to learn to be calm when meeting people. She tends to forget to listen. I realize perseverance is required here, and I am determined to make it work.
Wish us luck!

 

[Gunther]

Yeah that sounds great and yes Boxers do play rough pretty much use there feet to try and knock the other dog down while running around at great speed in circles is there idea of a great time!

But the stuff I mentioned is all the pack leader stuff, Russell doesn't need to learn this because he already knows!

I put Gunther at a disadvantage while learning this stuff because I would say "down" and Gunther would go down with 100 lbs of GSD on his head! Rocky wouldn't listen. But GSD have high Rank Drive and Boxers don't so that's in your favor! High Rank drive = OK your # 1 among humans but I'am gonna be top dog among the herd! That's what I found out on the GSD Forums and Dominate Male Bull Mastiff/Pit Mix
Dominate Aggressive Male GSD (7 month old) yeah should have seen it coming!

But the pack leader thing is key in your situation! You need to make changes in Abbey's living arrangements. Basic training won't do that!

Rocky GSD got him at 7 months (nutted up in the 18 /24 month range) ...walked on leash, off leash with the pack,sit ,stay, down all accomplished. Didn't go out the front door till I told him, same with open car doors,no issues with other dogs on walks or people and never any issues with either male outside the home. That was all basic obedience training and Rocky had that but that wasn't the issue. Problem wasn't basic training it was pack leadership!

Gunther like your Russell knew who the leader was the new dogs...not so much.

Sorry if it got a little scattered, there but trying to let you know what I learned the hard way! I also learned you can't pry a 100 lbs GSD's jaws open with your fingers! Yeah stitches on that one!

Anyway you were wise enough to reach out before it got to the point I reached! Make some changes in Abbey's life style and everything should be fine, Cause as you say your not sure there are issues yet but making some changes in how she lives with you guys( in the right way) will pay off big in the long run!

Thank you for rescuing and pressing forward with a bit of a bigger challenge than you were expecting!

 

[Kisaq]

I've noticed that she doesn't try to run after him and attack, which again, is leading me to believe she's more in it for fun than being nasty. However, I respect the fact that if Russell were to retaliate, we could have a serious problem.
I adopted Abby from a local animal shelter, and her previous family had used the same trainer as I am. (It turns out Abby lived about 10 km away from me.) He has known the family - and Abby - for a while now and was able to give me Abby's date of birth (March 10, 2012). Abby has boarded at his place numerous times in the past, I was told.
So in reality, the trainer is not only helping with training Abby, but he is training/educating me on handling a Boxer. Later this month, Abby and I will be commencing group lessons. She has basic obedience, and will sit/stay/down/stay/walk on loose leash, come when called very consistently. We now are working on performing those commands with distractions. (My daughter's cat really helps with that!)
Abby needs to learn to be calm when meeting people. She tends to forget to listen. I realize perseverance is required here, and I am determined to make it work.
Wish us luck!

How awesome that you found someone who knew your dog previously!
Sounds like you're doing great! She's a lucky girl to have landed with someone so dedicated to making it work.
Good luck!

 

[Carabby]

Thank you both for your insight and helpful tips. I admit to feeling like I am winning some days, and then other days .... well, you know. Abby's personal trainer has spent time with us (Russell included) and has shown me what to watch for before Abby lunges. That's great, but I am now feeling like I am being trained, but not really sure about Abby being trained. His method is to redirect Abby before she reaches her thresh hold, or correct her if she goes for Russell.
The past few days, I have been taking more of a time out approach, as you mentioned above, and I noticed especially today, that Abby was lunging towards Russell but more in a half-hearted manner, if you know what I mean. A "No, Abby" or "Uhhh uhhhh" was all it took to redirect her.
Do you think I am on the right track here?
Russell is giving Abby more of a wider space now than he was before, and that seems to be helping as well. He doesn't just go bumbling along when she is excited, and walks into a situation. Instead, he keeps a distance, which is helping.
I wasn't sure what you meant above about different living style, but I can tell you that I have been keeping Abby on a leash, when she is around Russell. I can then keep her at that proper distance, and that may be why Russell is relaxing as well.
The "incidents" are less frequent, and less challenging now. I believe this is positive.
What say you???
Obviously, I do not want to keep Abby on a leash forever, but this way, I am able to divert her, keep the dogs somewhat separated, and basically, stay on top of things.
As I have said before, Boxers are a new breed for me. Very different from labs, and this is also my first experience at owning more than one dog at the same time.

 

[Kisaq]

What say you???
.

Well this all sounds very positive! And I like your trainers plan (from what you've said). I had to laugh when you said it's you that's in training and not the dog ...LOL... yes, yes, and yes.

That is the way it always is.
Best case scenario: Abby will learn along with you.

Just try really hard to keep her from being in a position where she can fail. Build those good habits and cement them into her (and your) brain and body - soon it won't even cross her mind to do it the old way.

 

[Carabby]

I truly appreciate your support. (I also remind myself regularly that winter will be over, and that you experience worse temperatures than we are down here in Ontario!)
Definitely, I am noticed that Abby's "lunges" are more half-hearted now. Russell is not interested in her style of play/rough housing, and he simply turns away from her when she moves towards him like that.
When the weather gets better, I will start walking them together outside again. We've had so much ice, snow, and cold temperatures (yes, I can almost feel your sympathy!) that I've not been walking long distances with the dogs. Better days ahead, right?
My daughter vacated my basement this past weekend, so we now have a large area downstairs that is empty and the dogs and I have adapted it as an indoor training area. Works for us!
Thanks again for listening, and your encouragement.

 

[Kisaq]

That basement training area sounds awesome!

And yeh... the days are getting longer every minute now. .

Though we've been having rather balmy weather here lately! 45F yesterday (above 0!), and it only dropped to 25F today. May as well be spring except I have to keep reminding myself that the -60F is still to come! .

 

[Carabby]

Training Helps

Abby is taking classes now, that are concentrating on her interaction with other dogs. The first class was pretty wild, but she's calming down now in the company of others.

I am glad I got Abby well before Russell is ready to retire. It is going to take a while to get her to Therapy Dog status, but I am optimistic that she will get there.

We are both in training, for sure. Boxers are a whole lot different from my usual Labs! I can see now why there are so many people dedicated to this breed. They're hilarious, challenging, and loving.

 

[Carabby]

Balmy

By the way, Kisak, I agree that we just might be heading towards spring. The days are longer, albeit still rather chilly. Today, we actually had slush in some parking lots! LOL
You know, after all the cold weather, the slush was almost welcoming.....