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New Standard Passes!

Discussion in 'Showing - questions and answers' started by kassa, Oct 8, 2004.

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  1. PawPrintBoxers

    PawPrintBoxers Banned

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    Nope, that is just another dig against that open mindedness you proclaimed earlier :)

    By the by----the original breed standard came from Germany and it was that standard that had Boxers cropped and docked. Do you see any photos from those original foundation Boxers with uncropped and undocked tails? It is interesting to have you now use whatever the current FCI breed standard is to state it is Americans that have strayed from their Boxer roots.

    Or am I misunderstanding what you just tried to say?
     
  2. PawPrintBoxers

    PawPrintBoxers Banned

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    Just a mention since the discussion has gone to the breed standard being reviewed to allow for uncropped ears as well as cropped ears. Those members of the ABC that supported allowing a choice in ear cropping did it for just that one sole reason: A choice. These are not people who are animals rights activists and believe we are doing anything wrong. They are people that want to have a choice with each puppy they plan to show on wether that puppy will be cropped or not. They are not doing this as a platform against those that prefer to crop. They simply want to have a choice. Either way.
     
  3. boxer

    boxer Boxer Insane

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    Yes, the original breed standard came from Germany. And the standard promulgated by the FCI is the current German standard. Standards in all countries go through periodic small amendments - whether it be to clarify some point, update language for the same reason, or to affect some actual change. I'm sure that the change in the German standard to describe the dog being undocked and uncropped was at least partly a response to changes in relevant laws, rather than changes in how the dog was being bred.

    What is open minded about the German standard is that it allows for dogs to be either cropped or uncropped, and either docked or undocked - with no penalty. So the only thing governing whether or not you have a cropped or docked dog is personal choice (unless you live in a country that bans either procedure in law). But that applies only in a handful of the countries that follow the German standard (I think there are 80 of them), so everyone else has freedom of choice.

    That's not the case in the UK (well, it is for the tail) because cropped dogs are not allowed to compete at all, even those imported from a country where cropping is legal. It's not the case in the US either, because an undocked dog is penalised by the standard.

    Your point about adapting the standard (on a non-conformational issue) to allow people to choose whether their dog is cropped is a good one :) My point was that that choice should apply to the tail too. Neither of us live in a country where that is currently the case ;)
     
  4. katie71003

    katie71003 Boxer Booster

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    I very much agree with that statement! I wish we didnt have to alter the dog to make him acceptable to show! Its crazy. I personally think they should have 2 separate classes for each class they do. Such as one for natural dogs(uncropped ears, tails, or both), and one for cropped dogs. This way they would be allowed to compete more fairly. Instead say having a judge who likes cropped and chooses the cropped and not the uncropped just b/c its his preference. If there is an uncropped class, then the judge would have to evaluate that dog more fairly I think.
    Just a thought:)

    Katie
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 15, 2004
  5. PawPrintBoxers

    PawPrintBoxers Banned

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    Actually, that would not work. Assuming we are talking about unfinished class dogs, that same judge would still have to judge the uncropped dogs in Winners. It does not matter which class you put them in, they will all fall into Winners regardless. And if you are continuing to push for "equality", you would not even WANT a separate class.

    Personally, I am much more in favor of having an altered class for spayed/neutered animals. Allowing altered dogs to be exhibited and win Championship titles. Though they can not be bred, they are proof of those that can breed and can produce quality. It is sadly common enough with unspayed bitched getting Pyometra and having to be spayed to save their life. Pyo does not descriminate and a lovely finishable bitch could suddenly be taken out of the running. Or a young male that gets testicular cancer and has to be neutered, or has an accident and has to be neutered. Again, a quality animal produced by quality animals.

    That is much more where my focus would go in the interests of creating different classes of competition. The cat world has long had altered Champions and I think it is high time the dog show world does also.
     
  6. PawPrintBoxers

    PawPrintBoxers Banned

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    Actually, the ABC does have a choice in tail docking. Our choice is to dock and have it stated so in our breed standard. If there was internal support to not dock, then that would be brought up just as the current ear cropping discussions have been brought up.

    There simply is no ABC support towards anti tail docking. Even most of those voting in favor of a choice in ear cropping are rather firm about tail docking.
     
  7. JulieM

    JulieM Boxer Insane

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    The current FCI standard states:
    "The natural ears are of appropriate size...." and "Tail is left natural." No description is included of a cropped ear, and nothing about a docked tail is mentioned. While there are no specific penalties for docking/cropping, the *German* standard does not allow either as those surgeries are now against the law in Germany.

    What is ironic is that the current FCI standard is basically the same as the current (pre-revision which is not yet official) AKC standard, that everyone complains about as "not allowing" uncropped/undocked dogs....

    Not yet; however my understanding is that the penalization statement was added primarily because of lawsuits in this country regarding tails - it is a sort of "CYA" provision. Many of the countries in Europe and the UK have already lost the war on tails - we are trying not to fall into the same trap.... (Though I think Christina is quite right in that there is virtually zero support in the ABC and member clubs for allowing undocked tails; the few people I know of who voted against the 'tail statement' did so because they felt it would give ammunition to the animal rights extremists, much as the people who voted for it felt it would take ammunition away from them. They don't really want undocked tails on their Boxers.)

    With twice as many classes, judging for each cropped and/or docked breed will take twice as long and clubs will have to hire more judges. Look for entry fees to double....

    If you feel a judge consistently chooses their winners based on a personal preference for some trait that your dog does not have, and both the presence or absence of that trait are equally allowed by the breed standard, save your money and don't show to that judge. There's no difference in a judge choosing a cropped over an uncropped than there is in a judge choosing a fawn over a brindle, or choosing head over movement, or shoulders over topline, or whatever. You learn what the judge wants, and don't take them dogs you know they aren't going to like.
     
  8. Renee&Jake

    Renee&Jake Super Boxer

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    What is open minded about the German standard is that it allows for dogs to be either cropped or uncropped, and either docked or undocked - with no penalty.

    I must be confused, I thought that was an FCI regulation? I don't see anywhere in #144 that allows for cropping or docking.

    I remember a big ruckus about the 2003 World Show being held in Germany, and then in May (was it May?) 2002 no cropped or docked dogs were allowed to show in Germany (with of course exceptions in the hunting groups - grrr...if you REALLY want to talk about open minded...), so that ONLY Boxers with Tails & Ears were allowed to participate at the FCI International, because the VDH was unable to lift the restriction that one time.

    (I thought that's way they moved ATIBOX to countries like Poland, Slovenia, and the Czech Republic).
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2004
  9. RVsBoxer

    RVsBoxer Super Boxer

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    Well just to put my 2 cents in: I don't care what any FCI or whatever says. I was told it is not painful when the puppies, only a couple days old, get their tails docked. And they won't remember it was there. So what is the big deal? The docked tail goes perfectly with their personality, and even adds to it. My Wilson's wiggling nub cracks me up atleast 5 times a day, along with all his funny antics. I don't see why some people are against it, and would rather have a natural tail. It makes Boxers even more special and even more fun - it's just the perfect look for them. I hope docking will NEVER be against the law here.

    Sorry I didn't have anything educated/informative/more relevant to add:p

    I AM, however, very glad to see that natural ears will now be allowed in showing. I like both cropped and uncropped and either style doesn't take away from the Boxer personality (though I guess the cropped ears look a little more intimidating to some).
     
  10. gmacleod

    gmacleod Elusive Moderator Staff Member

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    Yes, it is an FCI regulation. The effect, however, is the same. A tail that is docked is not a fault, neither is the existence of a natural tail. The laws of individual countries permitting or banning such surgical procedures to be carried out on dogs is a rather different matter. Thus, for those countries using the FCI standard - whose governments have not instituted an overriding ban on cropping and/or docking - then the choice actually does exist for individuals on whether or not to crop/dock and not be penalized for their decision in the show ring.

    And I have to agree that is a nice concept, however unlikely (well, let's just say impossible LOL) it is that either the pro or anti docking lobbies will ever find a middle ground.

    You may not see why others think differently to you - but that doesn't mean other people's opinions are not valid. Some people do not believe it is painless or risk-free for the puppy. Some people think it is unethical to amputate a tail for purely cosmetic reasons. Some people just happen to prefer the look of a natural boxer: ears, tail and all :)

    Like you, my preference happens to be for docked - but I think the point brought up in this thread was that people should be able to choose without being penalized. That's individuals doing the choosing - not governments, lobby groups, the ABC or whomever choosing and (to a greater or lesser degree) forcing everyone else to comply with their decision. You can now choose to show your dog in the US either cropped or uncropped - and the suggestion has been made that that principle should equally apply to docked or undocked dogs. Well, that's a nice thought, but one unlikely to find a lot of support while the issue can be considered "ammunition" for either pro or anti docking.

    The discussion in this thread has not been about whether or not to ban docking in law. It has been about the boxer standard, the relevant show regulations in various countries, and whether or not an undocked boxer should be able to be shown without penalty. If this thread starts to head down the invariably political path of pro or anti docking, it will end closed.
     
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