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Future show prospect/foundation bitch

Discussion in 'Showing - questions and answers' started by DianeD, Mar 7, 2005.

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  1. DianeD

    DianeD Boxer Booster

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    Just a curiosity question here as I'm eventually going to acquire my first show prospect in the future. I know it depends on the judge but how does an extremely flashy bitch normally fare in the ring? The reason I'm asking specifically about a bitch is that I'm wondering if a super flashy bitch (bordering on the 1/3 white) would not do as well since she has a higher chance of producing more white puppies? Forgive me if my questions seem ignorant--I just don't know any better and want to learn more!

    Also, are breeders also more inclined to use a plain bitch than a flashy as their foundation bitch for a line? I notice that many bitches are used as brood bitches and not finished. How would a breeder start out with an unfinished bitch in this case? Isn't it harder to finish a plain bitch? Would they keep back all of the show prospects and finish them on their own to get their name out there? How can they find a stud dog that would be interested in breeding with an unfinished plain bitch owned by a person trying to start their own line? Or on the other hand, how would a breeder with a super flashy finished bitch find a stud dog that would be interested? In all of these cases I'm talking about a boxer that is close to standard and just different in amount of flash.

    I know I'm only talking about color here (or lack thereof) and there are many other factors. I eventually want to start my own line and want to start the best way possible.

    On the other hand, if I was to start with a dog as a show prospect, how common is it that a breeder starts this way and gets their foundation bitch as part of a contract to get pick of litter or 2nd pick of litter for stud fee? How common is it to have a seasoned breeder seek out your "first show dog ever" as stud?

    Thanks for any input!
     
  2. abby's mum

    abby's mum Super Boxer

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    I can't really answer your questions but here is some input. My hopefully soon to be mentor says that she prefers plain bitches to breed as they produce less if no white puppies and you can breed them to a flashy dog. However conformation is most important. She finishes all show quality plains by the way. I would also check to see if the bitch is actually 1/3 white. Either way, is this breeder going to be your mentor? Have you researched them, their program, etc, etc? Your questions should all be answered by your mentor. Not that I am insinuating she isn't reputable (not at all!) but you should agree with their program and ideals and they should answer all your questions. I hope other will put their knowledge and expereinces as I would like to here too.
     
  3. gmacleod

    gmacleod Elusive Moderator Staff Member

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    If the only differential were white markings, I'd go with the plain bitch every time ;)
    Yes, she would have a far lesser risk of producing white puppies or puppies more than 1/3 white. And that means more potential show-prospect/future breeding-prospect pups in a litter - which is the reason for breeding in the first place. It also gives a breeder the luxury of being able to choose a stud solely on conformation/best match without having to either avoid flashy dogs or else accept a high proportion of "wasted" puppies (ie. those disqualified by colour) in a litter. And those "wasted" pups might very well be the ones with the best conformation!

    Another advantage to breeding non-flashy dogs is that it avoids colour dilution - seen in the pale tan rather than rich red colours produced by the repetitive breeding of flashy animals, or the unpigmented haws that are increasingly common. Unpigmented haws, incidentally, are a fault in most countries ;)

    Yes, a plain bitch may be harder to finish. There is actually no legitimate reason for that though - in no country does the standard say that white markings are required. On the contrary, most standards say that they can be accepted within the 1/3 limitation. Either way, as a foundation bitch I'd prefer to have a plain one that nearly finishes than a flashy one that does so solely on the strength of markings.
     
  4. DianeD

    DianeD Boxer Booster

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    I have yet to make any decisions on a breeder, dog, bitch, mentor. I am however very close with JoJo's breeder who is reputable (all health testing done, shows her dogs, last litter ABC futurity nominated). She is just starting her own program and just had her second litter which has prompted me to start asking questions about my own futre of showing/breeding. She would love to mentor me and I would love to be mentored by her--problem being we live about 2000 miles apart. I will always go back to her for advice and input before I purchase ANY show prospect. At this time, I just want to get other breeders' opinions so I can learn more. I have boxers from both ends of the "reputable" breeder spectrum. Daisy from what I call a "glorified" puppy mill--a well known show kennel with co-ownerships all over the world, producing so many litters a year and does not care what happens to the pups that go to pet homes. JoJo's breeder is exactly the opposite! I wish she lived next door!

    Thank you so much for your input. I've been reading your threads and wish you luck as well!
     
  5. DianeD

    DianeD Boxer Booster

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    So basically it's a double-edged sword! ;)
    Since I'm just starting to consider seeking a foundation bitch, how difficult would it be to acquire a plain bitch as my first show prospect and find that perfect stud dog to compliment her? (Just to clarify--I plan on working on JoJo's therapy dog work/rally competition and work with rescue before getting to this point). In other words, if I find the plain bitch I want and do everything I can to finish her (at least get her pointed), do (reputable) stud dog owners shy away from the fact that she is my first show bitch? Or is it a case by case situation (I would think)? Is it more common for one to get their foundation bitch by finishing a dog and then studding him out at the cost of a puppy back? Wouldn't this be more difficult since the bitch owner seeks out the stud and not vice versa?

    Thanks for being patient with me!
     
  6. DianeD

    DianeD Boxer Booster

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    Ah, I get it, thus one of the purposes of specialling your dog--get that boy out there and campaign his studliness! Correct me if I'm wrong!
     
  7. DianeD

    DianeD Boxer Booster

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    Okay, now I'm really confused. Forgive me for not understanding, again all this about markings on a close to standard boxer. So if a breeder has a litter with intentions of having show prospect pups (I'm assuming this is the only reason to have a litter, meaning hoping for show prospect pups to represent the breed) and there is an assortment of markings, does the breeder look for show homes for all of the puppies regardless of markings (assuming there are no whites) if at 8 weeks, they all stack the same? If the litter consists of plain and flashy bitches, do breeders prefer to place the flashy ones into pet or show homes? Through browsing breeders' websites, it seems that the flashy bitches are available to show homes whereas the plain bitches are available to pet homes (or kept back to continue the line). Are the intentions of a breeder placing flashy bitches into show homes to have the line continued through them? Is there any other reason to show and finish a bitch other than to be assured that she is a good example of the breed? Then to breed her to continue the line?

    Or am I just thinking too deeply into this? ;)
     
  8. Kerry Jane

    Kerry Jane Super Boxer

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    I am not a breeder but I would think that you would want to find the best bitch possible regardless of colorations, but at the same time understanding that plain or minimal flash are best.
    Something else to consider would be whether you plan to show yourself or have a professional do it. Since a plain dog is more difficult to finish this would probably make more sense if you planned on using a professional. However, if you were set on showing her yourself I would think that it would be easier with a flashy bitch.

    My personal opinion, is that one should try to finish a bitch before breeding, if at all possible. That is really the only way to know that you have a quality dog (plus the health testing, of course).

    With regard to finding a stud dog and how hard that is being someone starting out, I can't say, since I haven't gone through this yet. Maybe some of the breeders on this list can comment on this. I would think that finishing your bitch would be one way of showing how committed you were to breeding better boxers.

    Kerry
     
  9. DianeD

    DianeD Boxer Booster

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    Thanks Kerry--totally agree! I would probably eventually have to find a pro to handle if I decide on a plain bitch. I'm very open to that. Depending on who's mentoring me, etc. So many things to consider!
     
  10. Alisha Mobley

    Alisha Mobley Boxer Insane

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    Diane,

    For breeding I agree that getting the best you can, regardless of flash or lack of, is best. If you're more interested in finishing a Boxer, then looking for the best flashy Boxer (regardless of sex) will make it easier to show. But don't think you can't finish a correct plainly marked Boxer...it may take longer but can be done! :)

    I don't think there'll be very many responsible breeders that'll have a problem with allowing someone new to use their stud dog as long as the bitch owner proves to be responsible as well. You'll also be working with a mentor, if your mentor is a responsible breeder s/he'll be able to help you find a stud dog. Your mentor will be able to vouch for you, help you to make contacts, etc. to get you started.

    Good luck! :)
     
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