Boxer IQ and working Boxers????

[Gunther]

I did not want to derail another thread, so I started a new one. Might have stepped on some toes by pointing out that Boxers are not in the doggie top 10 on IQ. I'm not saying Boxers are stupid! The doggie IQ measures how willing a doggie is to do what it is that you want them to do!

I used to have a # 79 IQ, doggie growing up,he was a Basinj. That dog was brilliant! He did what I wanted as a kid and I taught him to scale a 15 ft chain length fence! Yeah after that he became an escape artist! We lived on the base, animal control, caught him one time and we went to pick him up. He did not know what a catch pole was???? After they caught him the one time, he knew what a catch pole was! He got out a couple other times but "they" never caught him again! He was very anti social and dog/horse/people aggressive! Recall, consisted of me tackling him in the street to stop people attacks and in the field to stop him from going after horses! I don't think he knew what a lease was? Yeah the 60's,he actually made it to about 17 years old!!!! My parents took care of him when I moved to CA. Not my proudest moment! :(

Anyway the doggie IQ is about obedience "not" intelligence, If what you want to do is not as interesting as what the dog wants to do,they'll do what they want! That makes for a dog that is tough and time consuming to train!

Boxers are a working dog Breed but how many of them in this country actually work? I have seen one seeing eye Boxer on TV many years ago and never in real life...(when I was living in the city.

So I went on the hunt to find working Boxers! I know they serve as Police dogs K9's in Europe (Euro Boxers) but I have never seen one a K9 (Boxer) in this country? A trainer of K9 dogs said he can train three GSD's in the same amount of time as it takes to train one Boxer! Time is money so there is part of the answer!

I have a GSD and that's where the K9 dog people hang out, so I started a thread and asked them if they knew of any Boxer's serving K9 duty? I got a partial acceptable answer...yes! But...not exactly the K9 Boxers serving duty in this country are...Euros!

Google Police K9 Cliff vom Grand Kevin very impressive! So that's a partial answer, I was looking for an American Bloodline Boxer serving as a K9 and so far nothing?

I'll call that breeder and ask them why no American Bloodline Boxers, pretty sure I already know the answer at least in part and it's not because they are unintelligent!

Most likely the American Bloodline working Boxers are therapy dogs, I wish I had pursued that with Struddell should would have been wonderful at it and that does qualify as work but I was looking for SAR, military or K9 dogs specifically.

And the top 10 breeds...yeah they are not a cake walk to train either, you just run into a new set of issues
with them!

 

[Kisaq]

They call it bidable or bidability - not IQ.
Though many have the two mixed up.

There is a difference, genetically, in which dogs will look to you for answers and which dogs were originally created to make up their own minds in dangerous situations.

The Euro boxers are actually judged (if I'm wrong please correct me someone) in part on their drive - ie: their unwillingness to back down. A fearful dog is a disqualification in the Euro ring, if I remember right. They are stacked (presented) in a very forward powerful position, where as the British and American stacking style is more refined and perhaps genteel? So those lines are often more suited to Therapy (friendly) work rather than guard work.

The GSD is originally a herding dog. They are genetically inclined to look to you for your needs, then make their own decision on how to get there. The original working "Boxer" ancestors were bull baiters and bred to get in and out on their own - they had to rely on themselves to stay safe. Same goes for the military messenger dogs. Yes, the work was for the "good of the pack" (ie: survival), and the "pack" was indeed more human than dog (thus the human-centric focus of the boxer breed), but it was not a team effort. So they are less inclined to take orders, if their own minds think it would be wiser to do otherwise.

There are many many working boxers in the States. From American lines. There are even boxers who are winning in herding of all things.

I personally have a working boxer. He is my service dog in training. And he's doing great with his training. But I don't need a retriever. He would be a terrible retriever. .

I need a dog that is going to be aware of my state of mind. And the human-centric-ness ( - a new word for the dictionary) of a boxer falls right into line with that. They are very sensitive to emotional and psychological states, so as long as I can train him to understand that his safety/health/happiness/etc relies upon my remaining in a particular state of mind (or staying out of another one) he will bring his wonderful stubborn energy and boisterous self to bear to make absolutely sure that I remain in (or stay out of) that state of mind.

He's very reliable.

 

[furrykidmom]

My Boxer experience

I had a GSD. She was eager to please and work. She was the easiest dog we ever trained. She could be in a full out run chasing a deer and if i called to her she would turn on a dime and come back. Amazing girl!!

I have had three American Boxers. Not stupid in any sense of the word but they certainly did not train as quickly as my Shepherd did.

Now onto present day. I have a Euro Boxer now. He is training as nicely as my GSD did. I am simply amazed by him. He makes me look good. I have had a rough year personally and the puppy has not had the time dedicated to his training that he should have. I have him enrolled in nose work, agility and the occasional flyball. He is excelling at a rapid pace. Two people from the advanced nose work class attend our beginner nose work class. My boy just turned 8 months old. We have been invited to practice with the advanced group. We are still only doing things at his level but it is an honor that they see his potential.

At agility class he had no fear and he is so willing to please that when the instructor is trying to explain to me what it is she wants me to do he is already doing it. My husband is often sitting on the sidelines calling over that we need to reward him. The problem is not the Boxer it is me. LOL

In puppy obedience class we had a puppy olympic competition. Who ever got the most transitions from sit to down, down to sit in 30 seconds would be the winner. The average was 8. My boy scored 17. He was nearly double everyone else in his class which included two GSD's. We won a bag of free Pure Vita dog food.

We go in March for his herding instinct test. I am so excited. We have contact with Boxer people in Ca that do herding with their Boxers. Check out youtube and look for Pip or Fred. They are amazing.

I feared that I was exposing him to too many experiences as a puppy but he has been like a sponge. He is absorbing everything and loving all of it. So long as it remains fun for both of us we will continue. I have been told this early exposure is great for a pup because he is learning not to be afraid of new experiences.

In our agility class he loves the tunnel where as some dogs balked at the enterance. And he loves to push the chute. He has no fear of height or balance on the walkway or A-frame (low position because is still growing and developing) and he loves to make the teeter hit. (also in training position) The jumps and the tire are also in their lowest position. This is where he will go back and forth and back and forth while the instructor and I are talking. He just loves it.

He is doing the flyball jumps and has learned to jump and pivot where the box will be in just one class. his agility training most likely helped with this.

Can you tell I am just one incredibley proud mother????

 

[Gunther]

Thanks for the input guys/ladies? Kisaq, I understand the distinction, just going by the usual colloquialism.
Furrykid mom ysesGSD's are indeed very,very bright! But it makes me nervous when folks with experiance deem them "easy" to train! GSD's are not a dog for Joe Q Dipwap! I had issues with my guy that I never anticipated.

Got our GSD from a rescue at 7 months, inadditon to dealing with high rank drive??? That showed up 18 months later, I discovered that he greeted folks in the home like raw meat!!???? Low growl and a cold hard stare!!!???

First dog I ever used a muzzle on, first dog I would stand between people and him and say "no you can't pet my dog , he's in training. ) It paid off he's safe in public at vet in lines with other dogs! He just doesn't care about other people or dogs. People can pet him and just stands and smiles more like..."whatever and he watches me!

Very un Boxer like! I had no idea! Very un Boxer like! The only threat my other guys posed to people was being like to death by Gunther and liked and punched in the face by Struddell!

Personnely I would think that the dogs that number 11-25 would be easier dogs for the average responsible dog owner?

The futher down the list you go the more you need to have your crap together!

The Euro's I know have more "prey drive" then the American Line Boxers, that's why, when I found the K9 Boxers, they were all Euro's! My GSD taught me what high drives in dogs means!

So how do the Euro's do as family pets? My GSD is a faithful loyal companion and "tolerant" of starngers and company...the term aloof comes to mind. I don't want that in a Boxer my Stru...100% American Bloodline...was boisterous, happy and goofy! She loved people that's what I want in a Boxer are the Euro's anything like that? Just seems like they are a more serious version of a Boxer. I like the Euro look kinda look like, a shrunk down Bull Mastiff.

One serious dog is enough for me! So I guess I'm asking what are the Euro's like with company and around strangers. Family really is'nt an issue even the most intense breed if well trained is good with it's own pack. I don't "need" a Boxer that I have to train to ignore people and say..."no you can't pet my dog"
to people on a walk.

 

[Gunther]

Crap took to long to edit! This is how the other post should have read...

Thanks for the input guys/ladies? Kisaq, I understand the distinction, just going by the usual colloquialism.
Furrykid mom ysesGSD's are indeed very,very bright! But it makes me nervous when folks with experiance deem them "easy" to train! GSD's are not a dog for Joe Q Dipwad! I had issues with my guy that I never anticipated.

Got our GSD from a rescue at 7 months, in additon to dealing with high rank drive??? That showed up 18 months later, I discovered that he greeted folks in the home like raw meat!!???? Low growl and a cold hard stare!!!???

First dog I ever used a muzzle on, first dog I would stand between people and him and say "no you can't pet my dog , he's in training. ) It paid off he's safe in public at the vet or in lines with other dogs! He just doesn't care about other people or dogs. People can pet him(now) and he just stands and smiles more like..."whatever and he watches me!

Very un Boxer like! The only threat my other guys posed to people was being licked to death by Gunther and licked and punched in the face by Struddell!

Personnely I would think that the dogs that number 11-25 would be easier dogs for the average responsible dog owner?

The futher down the list you go the more you need to have your crap together!


The Euro's I know have more "prey drive" then the American Line Boxers, that's why, when I found the K9 Boxers, they were all Euro's! My GSD taught me what high drives in dogs means!

So how do the Euro's do as family pets? My GSD is a faithful loyal companion and "tolerant" of starngers and company...the term aloof comes to mind. I don't want that in a Boxer my Stru...100% American Bloodline...was boisterous, happy and goofy! She loved people that's what I want in a Boxer, Are the Euro's anything like that? Just seems like they are a more serious version of a Boxer. I like the Euro look kinda look like, a shrunk down Bull Mastiff.

One serious dog is enough for me! So I guess I'm asking what are the Euro's like with company and around strangers. Family really is'nt an issue even the most intense breed if well trained is good with it's own pack. I don't "need" a Boxer that I have to train to ignore people and say..."no you can't pet my dog"
to people on a walk.

Oh and I did see the you tube of the herding Boxers! I was both surprised and impressed!

 

[furrykidmom]

Only 8 months old

I cant really give you the input you are looking for. My boy is only 8 months old. He was weird with family from out of town at our home for a funeral but we have a very small house and we had 12 people in a house that usually only has two people. He was exceptionally aggressive around the children. However, our boy has a cataract in his right eye so we are not certain how he is affected by their fast movements. He is also 8 months old and going thru that weird adolescent stage. He is protective vocally on the end of a leash however you can approach him without any threating responses. He is in many classes and does well with people and other dogs in class.

Time will tell.

I would not classify myself as an experienced trainer. I have been around dogs all my life and worked for 15 years as a veterinary technician but not as a behaviorist or trainer. Our GSD was a challenge also. She was kinda a rescue. The breeder was going to put her down at one year of age because she was not breed quality and she could not place her. Her ears were not parallel. She was raised in a garage of stacked crates and a play yard with other dogs. She had never been in a house or around people. She was very timid around people. She was protective at a distance but I never felt that I had to worry about her biting someone. She was highly intelligent. She figured out how to open doors on her own as well as drawers with food. We put child locks on them and she figured those out also. We had to put magnetic locks on that required another magnet to release them. But she did learn and obey commands very quickly. We just always needed something to keep her busy or she would find something to occupy herself.

 

[Roge]

Ok well as a ""Euro "" Boxer owner I can tell you that they are Goofy,happy and boisterous but at the same time a guard dog. IE : on meeting people I am aware of his heightened interest like head raised slight pull on the leash but as soon as I say AH which is the word I use for something I don't want him to do he relaxes and if I stop to talk to someone he is not familiar with I make him sit however if they show him the slightest bit of interest he is all over them like a rash looking for attention.
He is not overly happy about strangers coming into our home ,he barks at the door bell or a car he is not used to pulls in ( he knows the sound of our cars,we live in the country side and if I am outside I know about 2 mins before someone arrives home that they are on their way by his reaction ) but like that an Ah and sit usually does the trick and he accepts whoever arrives with excitement ..
On the other hand I don't know how he would react to someone coming into your yard if we were not home, one side of me says he would attack, the other side says if the showed signs of wanting to paly it would be game on ... heres hoping I never find out !!!!

 

[Gunther]

Ok well as a ""Euro "" Boxer owner I can tell you that they are Goofy,happy and boisterous but at the same time a guard dog. IE : on meeting people I am aware of his heightened interest like head raised slight pull on the leash but as soon as I say AH which is the word I use for something I don't want him to do he relaxes and if I stop to talk to someone he is not familiar with I make him sit however if they show him the slightest bit of interest he is all over them like a rash looking for attention.
He is not overly happy about strangers coming into our home ,he barks at the door bell or a car he is not used to pulls in ( he knows the sound of our cars,we live in the country side and if I am outside I know about 2 mins before someone arrives home that they are on their way by his reaction ) but like that an Ah and sit usually does the trick and he accepts whoever arrives with excitement ..
On the other hand I don't know how he would react to someone coming into your yard if we were not home, one side of me says he would attack, the other side says if the showed signs of wanting to paly it would be game on ... heres hoping I never find out !!!!

Ok now to me that sounds a bit better balanced than my GSD, I had to work hard on him to deal with people, step between him and strangers (he waited quietly while I talked) and we moved on. I used a muzzle for awhile (first dog I ever felt the need to muzzle). Don't "know" if he would have bitten anyone but I was not going to give him the chance!

He was a rescue at 7 months BYB, he has "wobblers" he presented well while we fostered him got along well with the other dogs (for 18 months) (more lessons to be learned!).

My wake up call was the first time we had company over, he greeted them with a cold hard stare and a low growl???!!!! And it did not strike me that he was fearful? He just flat did not like folks in his place, So it was muzzle time!

A public safe dog was achieved after about a year or so of "no" you can't pet my dog". Today no muzzle (I was using the soft fabric kind, it was sufficient for my needs) the vet visits no problem, low cost clinic days no problems, he was one of the best behaving dogs out there. And with my permission folks can pet him and he just flat does not care!

Today we can have company and he goes to his place and lays his head down, ears up and just watches everything! He virtually never barks unless someone is on the property (suburban house) with dogs on both sides the dogs are of no interest to him and he doesn't care if the neighbors are in their backyard.He never barks unless someone is on the property and now never growls. If I hear him growl now..then it means some serious crap is going down!

I would get another GSD, I understand them now but it was a lot of work! My wife however while she loves our GSD..she says no...never again! I could probably sneak a Malonis in under the radar though!

Your guy actually sounds like he has some of the same qualities as my guy but a better balance between
acceptance of folks and a tolerance of folks.

Goofy,happy and boisterous don't apply to my GSD at all. He's just a very intense dog! Very,very unlike my Boxer!

The Euros seem like as I said a better balance...between suspicion and tolerance and acceptance .I can see why they are the K9's of the Boxer World!

I couldn't picture Struddell as an IPO dog! She'd be more like "daddy that bad man was hitting me with a stick! :("

Thanks for the input!

 

[Gunther]

I cant really give you the input you are looking for. My boy is only 8 months old. He was weird with family from out of town at our home for a funeral but we have a very small house and we had 12 people in a house that usually only has two people. He was exceptionally aggressive around the children. However, our boy has a cataract in his right eye so we are not certain how he is affected by their fast movements. He is also 8 months old and going thru that weird adolescent stage. He is protective vocally on the end of a leash however you can approach him without any threating responses. He is in many classes and does well with people and other dogs in class.

Time will tell.

I would not classify myself as an experienced trainer. I have been around dogs all my life and worked for 15 years as a veterinary technician but not as a behaviorist or trainer. Our GSD was a challenge also. She was kinda a rescue. The breeder was going to put her down at one year of age because she was not breed quality and she could not place her. Her ears were not parallel. She was raised in a garage of stacked crates and a play yard with other dogs. She had never been in a house or around people. She was very timid around people. She was protective at a distance but I never felt that I had to worry about her biting someone. She was highly intelligent. She figured out how to open doors on her own as well as drawers with food. We put child locks on them and she figured those out also. We had to put magnetic locks on that required another magnet to release them. But she did learn and obey commands very quickly. We just always needed something to keep her busy or she would find something to occupy herself.

Sounds like you did a great job! Our Rocky gave me the very clear impression that he would indeed bite the crap out of someone! So I took no chances! And yes GSD"s are very smart! or biddable if you prefer!

I train my guys not to go out of doorways without permission. Front door deal, Rocky got that real quick.But when I go to let him out in the back yard, I open the slider and he just stands there in the doorway??? Then I realize and say "Go" he made no distinction between the front yard and the back yard, all he saw was a threshold and waited for a command!!

We have cats and sometimes when we would leave the house for a few hours we'd leave Rocky in the yard while we were gone if he did not want to come in. We'd get home he's inside and the slider is wide open???

Finally discovered that he could open the screen door and the slider and let himself in while we were gone!??

Your guy that's vocal on the leash? I wouldn't like that myself, if he's people safe and I assume he is? I would just treat and move on, no need for correction ,if he starts up or preferably right before! Just give a treat and move on. No corrections, no interactions, just treat and move on, after a bit he'!ll learn that people moving around are of no consequence!

 

[bxrbgood]

Of our three, Lily is the most 'American' looking. She is also the most distrustful of strangers. And I have to tell her more than once to leave it or be nice if someone is running by. She has no love of fighting or biting but she's not afraid of her rank. She thinks of herself as the alpha female. She takes it upon herself to protect us all. In the house she is the most likely one to sit on the couch or her bed and avoid company.

Ginger and Diezel have bigger heads which look like they have more Euro blood in them. Both are OK with strangers. When we are walking they won't run up to confront or say hi to someone unless I indicate we are going up to meet them. But they are harder to read for the strangers. They look more intimidating. It's harder to tell if they're smiling than it is with Lily.

They are trained to stay at the top of the 1/2 staircase while someone answers the door. When they are released they wiggle around like Boxers do. All three are great with strangers or friends in the house with our permission. Kids or adults. They may try to jump up on some people but stop when told to do so.